Why are you still posting? You’ve had your ass handed to you like six times. You are embarrassing yourself. I’ve watched Mat and Philmon tag teaming you and it’s been hilarious.

Classic left-wing debate tactics at work here folks – say something outrageous, get your ass handed to you. Move the goalposts and try again. Get your ass handed to you. Deflect. Profess shock and outrage. Get your ass handed to you a third time. Continue to ramble on and on as if your first two points haven’t already been blown to pieces in the eyes of anyone with a second-grade command of English.

Douchebag.

Seriously.

Well, if you consider concrete evidence as thin, then apparently you’ve got a much different idea of an intellectual debate than I do.

“I just think there is a whole lot of reasons people vote for Democrats and this handout thing is sort of odd one. Democrats work just as hard as anyone.”

Depends on the Democrat. Those who want entitlements aren’t exactly hard workers, in my opinion.

“Wanting a competent government to help some of those is not what I call a bad thing.”

I find that there is a profound difference between occasionally helping someone who is truly deserving of it and simply handing hard earned wages to someone in perpetuity. Obama calls it “neighborly.” I think it compulsion.

“I call it civilization.”

I call it socialism bordering on Marxism.

Yeah, I agree about the around and round part. I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall. That’s ok, I’m used to it, since my workplace on campus is chock full of leftists.

How is that out of the mainstream? Leaders (yes, even Bush despite leftist cries to the contrary) come and go as to its policies, but the country remains. So what you’re saying is that the American flag is linked to a particular administration and not the country? Talk about being out of the mainstream…

I think there’s a profound difference between wanting something better and essentially giving aid and comfort to the enemy by denouncing our soldiers as babykillers (please, there are tons of liberals who think that way and I see them on campus all the time). When you protest like a bunch of loonies, you’re telling muslim fanatics that we’re hopelessly divided and that they can attack at will to drive us back to our own shores. Case in point, your messiah will withdraw our troops from Iraq just when they’ve approached victory. He may or may not send them to Afghanistan (I suppose it’ll depend on how much he needs the far left). So we’ll muddle around for a few years, take some more casualties and then the left will start screaming to get our troops out there too. Oh yeah, I can already see that happening.

That’s a fantastic strategy, by the way. Way to be appreciative of the troops (I won’t mention the 25% reduction in the budget that the Democrats are already clamoring for, but hey you gotta support the troops somehow) Sorry, but that’s just bizarre. So you’re essentially saying that in order to help the troops, you’re giving messages to the enemy to strike that much harder? Personally I think a sound battle plan, good logistics and a reduction of Rules of Engagements works wonders. Can’t wait to see what the next terrorist attack will look like.

BTW, you’re definitely right about the biased part…

Well you’ve made it clear you are very conservative. Which is fine. But where I part with you is the broad generalizations you make about why blacks didn’t leave New Orleans or why they vote for Democrats.

Most of the people that were caught in New Orleans were waiting for the government to tell them what to do. and People vote Democrat because they want something handed to them.

Hate to say it but your view on this is pretty narrow as to border on conspiracy. It’s as though you have created a stereotype in your mind and made it so real that you seek out anicdotal evidence to back it up even thought the evidence is thin at best. I just think there is a whole lot of reasons people vote for Democrats and this handout thing is sort of odd one. Democrats work just as hard as anyone. Wanting a competent government to help some of those is not what I call a bad thing. I call it civilization.

Anyway no reason to go round and round.

When you say the left consistently undermines a war effort by telling soldiers that they should shoot their officers, turn their guns on the government or cheer American casualties I honestly [to my knowledge] do not know and definitely do not identify with anyone who says or believes this. And I have been to war protests. But even if there are a few idiots they are well in the minority. Think about it. 65 million people voted for Obama. How many of these people would you say fit this leftist description?
Everyone [including conservatives] I know who opposed the war had a rather mature view of it. I don’t want to make this a long post but basically we did not like the decision to go into Iraq. But we respect the soldiers. How can we not? They have volunteered their time to fight. We just think they deserve better leaders in Washington.

And sorry but the ‘my country right or wrong’ position I find a bit out of the mainstream. America is a great country but some of its leaders and some of its policies have not always been great. People do have a right to expect more and expect room for improvement. Even you’d have to agree that some of the time we can do better. I think electing Obama is a step toward doing better. But I’m a liberal so I’m biased.

You’re the one who made the humility statement, not me. If you think I “overanalyzed” it, then you should have been clearer. Personally I have no issue being humble. However, when I have blacks constantly harping about how racist this country is, yeah, I’m not going to feel pretty humble. Whites in this country have been getting a pretty bad rap over the last forty years and as I said before, and I’m getting sick of being lumped in with a truly racist group that died long ago because my skin color happens to be white.

“Political tar and feathering: What’s funny is you are taking these same conclusions that we on the left use. For instance when McCain brought up the Ayers connection to Obama most of us thought what McCain really meant to say was “Obama is a terrorist, right? I mean why else bring it up?” No reason to make assumptions.”

Ok, to equate me to that douchebag Ayers is pretty low (though it doesn’t seem to bother the left too much). Bill Ayers is an American-hating pile of prehistoric frogshit who should have been put down long ago. His Weatherman movement is responsible for a number of deaths and it’s only by sheer luck that a lot of American soldiers weren’t blasted away at Fort Dix. That guy is on record after his pardon by saying “Guilty as sin, free as a bird. What a country!” He had no issues proclaiming his guilt then, but now he says that it’s all a mistake? He and his whore (yeah, she was definitely that) of a wife have yet to even express remorse for what they did. Reverend Wright was essentially a black separatist. Those are not assumptions, but grounded in total fact.

These are people that Obama constantly hung around with (and still does). Sorry, but that puts up red flags all over in my book. Even if he didn’t know all of this shit (and I don’t believe for a moment that he didn’t), then that shows an incredible lack of judgement on his part. That’s the equivalent to a what-if scenario of McCain hanging out with the Grand Master of the KKK and hanging Hitler portraits all over his room. And I think we both know what would have happened if the press ever remotely found out that this was the case (note: this is in fact hypothetical).

“How are social programs a disaster? And which are we talking about? [I just found out Joe the Plummer's family was on welfare for a while. I mean the guy is a bit odd but at least he can admit this helped him out].
This whole ‘it has to be earned’ stuff is just b.s.”

Um, the kind that pays out my hard earned paycheck to a bunch of deadbeats who refuse to work. So what if Joe the Plumber was on welfare. The point is that he isn’t now. However, you have entire generations of blacks living off of welfare like it’s a wage. As far as earning being BS, I guess that’s a fundamental difference between you and I that will never be resolved. I believe that people should be able to keep what they earned through labor. You seem to think that people making wages are a cash-cow for those who do not want to work.

“You think if people financially fail because of medical bills or because stocks tumble they should just be left in the dirt?”

It depends on the medical condition. The elderly should be taken care of. They’ve earned that right. However, there is plenty of medical crap out there that was self-induced. It’s a person’s responsibility to stay healthy. They don’t have a “right” to my money. End of story. Stocks go up and down. The stock market is also not a right. It’s never a given and it’s often not fair. I’ve had my stocks make major tumbles and have lost money. That’s the nature of the game. You’re telling me that people who make dumb stock market decisions should always make money? People who don’t understand Wall Street shouldn’t be investing. Period. That’s just a responsibility issue. The Democrats don’t believe in any personal responsibility. Everyone should be given everything. Bull.

“We just bailed out the Banking industry and will probably do so with the Auto industry. Should we call them a bunch of whiny losers and tell them to suck it up?
This is what gets me about many Conservatives. They hate anything that smacks of socialism until their company fails. Then they want the government to bail them out.”

Ok, let me make this perfectly clear. Thos Republicans who voted for that bailout cannot, in good conscience, call themselves conservatives. I was totally against the bailout for the reason I stated above. It’s a responsibility issue. If ordinary people screw up consistently and don’t get a handout, then that goes double for businessmen who get greedy and overreach. They, of all people, should understand that. And I think the vast majority of true conservatives would agree with me on that. And yes, I think they should suck it up and take their losses. The American auto industry makes shit cars (for the most part) and their employees are way overpaid. $73 to put a wicket in a widget? Yeah, I wish I had that problem. I personally have a Subaru, so I speak with a clear conscience. When the American auto industry gets serious about making a decent car for a reasonable rate, I’ll consider buying one. Manufacturing is dying out in this country. It’s just the way it is. Companies are naturally going to go to a place where they can pay a worker $20 an hour to make the same product that can be made here for $73. I have no real issue with that, but then I’m not in the manufacturing trade.

“You’re conflicted on your Hurricane Katrina argument. First you say it is the people’s fault for not leaving [many who had no vehicles] then you say it was the governments fault for not providing transportation. So who is to blame?

Ok, since you totally missed my point…
I don’t think I ever laid the blame on the people. I said that was the true tragedy. The fact that many of them waited for the government to tell them what to do was the really sad part. So obviously, I’m saying it was mostly the governments fault, since they created an entire generation of people who couldn’t think for themselves. By the way, since when do you necessarily need a vehicle to leave a disaster area?

“Note too it wasn’t the Hurricane by itself that caused all the problems. The broken levees played a big part. Why blame the citizens for that?”

Yeah, but they knew that it was a category 5 storm and that the levees weren’t built for that kind of hurricane. Again, I’m not blaming the citizens for it. Check above argument.

“Also the survival comparison is sort of odd. What are you saying? Pakistani’s are smarter than New Orleans citizens? A city is a lot different than a village.”

I would say that the Pakistanis were at least mentally astute enough to get out of a bad situation when it happened. By the way, even though there were villages, the sheer number of people who walked was quite substantial (we’re talking thousands). Most of the people that were caught in New Orleans were waiting for the government to tell them what to do. And if the government is to provide all of the services to the people (which is what they expected), then the least it can do is organize an evacuation, which never occurred.

“Regarding your rant against blacks and Democrats I should note that a good many of the blacks I know are middle class Americans in NY and CA who get no handouts and happen to like the Democratic platform and where it stands on many issues.”

I hate to break it to you pal, but the majority of blacks are not middle class. While blacks in the middle class have increased substantially in the last 20 years, it is by no means the majority. So this argument is moot.

“You make it seem like the only reason people like Democrats is because of welfare, which if you can recall, was stopped by Clinton a decade ago.”

Well, let’s face it. People vote Democrat because they want something handed to them. Democrats excell at giveaway programs. That’s hardly a mystery. And no, Clinton did not “stop” welfare. It was simply reduced. I’m sure it will once again become the rage when the messiah gets into office. In this particular election, I think people voted Democrat (or at least didn’t vote Republican) because Republicans stopped being Republicans. When one side has a consistent political message, no matter how warped it is, and the other is just a muddle of incoherent thoughts, guess who’s going to win?

“No one should be looked down on because of what party they vote for.”

Of course they should. That’s the nature of being in a political party. Cripes, the left didn’t have an issue with this for eight years. Why suddenly develop a conscience now?

“I suppose in time more blacks will become Republicans. But they aren’t dumb because they are Democrats.”

It is possible that blacks will wean themselves off of Democratic handouts and giveaway programs. I personally think they’ll be better for it. As for being dumb, those are your words, not mine.

I think (though do not know for certain since I’m not Philmon) the argument is that the left is conditionally patriotic, which I happen to agree with.

As Stephen Decatur once said “May my country always be in the right, but my country, right or wrong.” It’s one thing to disagree with the government. I do it all the time. But when the left consistently undermines a war effort by telling soldiers that they should shoot their officers, turn their guns on the government or cheer American casualties, that’s way out of line. There is a certain decorum that the left obviously lacks.

My parents have a flag hanging out on the front porch. It has remained there since they moved in six years ago (and they flew it in the old house before that). They never took it down because of a disagreement with the government. The idea of the American flag should transcend petty ideological or party differences. The idea that one can agree to disagree is a fundamental right in this country.

However, it’s cheapened when someone says “I’m taking my flag down because of a presidential decision and won’t put it up again unless the rest of the population sides with me.” That seems rather childish. It’s rather akin to the consistent leftist whine that “If a Republican wins, I’m moving to Canada!” I make the conclusion that leftists are more interested in setting a party’s ideological agenda ahead of the country (Republicans are somewhat guilty of this as well).

Sorry, but I think being an American means that you stick with the country through good and bad, not picking and choosing when to defend it and when to collectively kick it in the groin. It’s a maturity aspect that the left has yet to master.